Subforum: Traditions > East Asian Buddhism > Chan/Zen/Seon General Forum
Thread title: Right View… the Beginning of the Path…, what is it? and who’s is it?
Date: Sept 2nd 2006

Namdrol (Former E-sangha global moderator):

That’s up to you. What you beleive is one thing. What Buddhism teaches is quite another.

Zen without Buddhism has no place on this forum. There is no Buddhism without a teaching on rebirth.

Thus, those who wish to have their Zen without Buddhism should go elsewhere– they will be unhappy here.

Forum member:

I think that’s for them to decide. Your statement definitely reads as an implication that they are unwelcome heretics. In practice, mainstream Zen teaching does not necessarily conform to Buddhist doctrine, even if it has its origins there. I think it is unfortunate that non-Zen practitioners are taking this almost ‘witch-hunt’ attitude towards Zen, both Japanese and Western, ancient and modern.

I for one am far more interested in actual reality than in whether I am permitted to call myself ‘a Buddhist’ or post on what is supposed to be a Zen forum.

Namdrol (Former E-sangha global moderator):

People may say whtaever they like, but if they are going to teach Buddhism, then rebirth is completely integral to the path the Buddha taught.

For example, there are Once-returners and never-returners, these terms refer to the number rebirths a practitioner must undergo within the desire realm before reaching final nirvana as an arhat.

The Buddha taught these terms, and doctrines. Rebirth, i.e. appropriating new series of aggregates after the breakup of this life’s aggreegates, is a non-trivial essential doctrine of Buddhism; anyone who teaches it is not is proclaiming a mistaken view. Any so called “Buddhist” teacher who teaches that rebirth is not a vital component or teaches that there is no rebirth for common ordinary people on a conventional level is a materialist and should be ignored.


3 Responses to “Rebirth”

  1. Kevin Solway Says:

    Currently, one is no longer allowed to even discuss literal rebirth, unless one agrees with it.

    The Buddha never taught that “appropriating a new series of aggregates after the breakup of this life’s aggregates is a non-trivial essential doctrine of Buddhism”. So the moderator of that forum is speaking nonsense. In fact, such a view has *nothing whatsoever* to do with Buddhism, but one is not even allowed to explain this fact on the e-sangha forum!

    Buddhism teaches about continuity through *cause and effect*, but nothing at all about “appropriating a new series of aggregates”.

  2. Simon Says:

    Even those who ” believe” the literal teachings about post mortem rebirth seldom arrive at that position without a period of reflection which can be prolonged, and which is simultaneous with learning to meditate. The latter does not depend on belief. E Sanghas attempt to make it so dependant is primitive and profoundly unbuddhist.

  3. Saraha Says:

    Well now you have to define what Buddhism is…

    vibhajja-vāda: ‘analytical or discriminating doctrine’

    Rather you should say investigation is completely integral to the path the Buddha taught rather than re-birth !

    Investigation of what ? Truth,Origin,Cessation of suffering and 8foldPath in 12 fold permutations.

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