http://chagchen.org/2009/04/08/whinge-about-e-sangha/

Forum member:

The Order of Hsu Yun has a page with photos of disciples, some whom appear to be monks and nuns and others who appear to be lay teachers:

http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Photos/Clergy/clergy08.html

I was wondering if Chinese Ch’an has orders that are more along the Japanese style of clergy with married people holding minesterial roles and considered ordained clergy.

I was a little confused because from reading what is available of the late Master Hsu Yun’s writings in English, it seemed he was a staunch advocate of monastic Vinaya.

Huifeng E-sangha Founding Member

Hello brother

Having a look over that link, a couple of thoughts:

1. It does say “clerical” members. Also, they have a couple of upasikas at the bottom. This tends to imply that the rest are members of the Samgha (in the old fashioned sense that means monastic samgha).

2. They use “Reverend” and not “Venerable”, but a few groups do that, so nothing out of the ordinary at all.

3. Most seem to be ordained (what sort of ordination, it doesn’t say, see below) in the last 10 years or so.

4. The abbot, co-abbot and directors were only ordained within the last 10 years. That is not very long, usually. Apparently the abbot became the abbot as soon as he was ordained! hmmm…. But most of them seem in their middle age, so they could have been practicing for quite some time. I guess.

5. It states explicitly (as if making a strong point about it), that one of them received “10-master ordination”. Well, in the Vinaya of any school, Chinese Chan included, basically any bhiksu/ni ordination requires “ten acaryas”. So, lucky for that person. But … what does that say about the other ordinations? hmmm….

6. A few of them have a lot more hair than I have seen on monastics before.

7. Some are wearing a “green” robe. Yes, a kasaya which is green. I have never heard of that, let alone seen that, before. Quite … special.

8. I can’t see any “precept burns” on the head. However, the PRoC has since banned these. They do them in Taiwan and HK though, also Singapore, Malaysia, etc. and at the CTTB, still.

A discussion of the faults or otherwise of Pabhongka Rinpoche results in the following:

Jamyang Norbu (E-sangha Administrator)

This conversation has the potential to become very circular.

What everyone needs to take into consideration before discussing further is that not everyone accepts the attribution of Buddhahood to the same masters.

For many Gelugpas, Pabhongka is a Buddha. For many students of other schools he is not.

The same with people such as Gorampa, Dudjom Rinpoche, Dolpopa, etc. All of their schools think they are Buddhas, or at the least mahasattvas, but the Gelugpas in general would not accept this.

When having these cross tradition discussions we need to keep this in mind.

If one wants to convince others of the greatness of certain masters, they should talk about their perceived specific qualities. If someone wishes to dispute this, they should talk about their lack of perceived specific qualities.

Forum member:

I am a vegetarian considering going vegan.

I’d like to learn more about the Tibetan medical views of veganism. Is it generally considered a healthy choice in Tibetan medicine? Is it generally advised against? I understand that i would probably have to be assessed by a Tibetan medical practitioner to see how it would work with my personal constitution but are their any general views held about it?

Any info would be great and much appreciated.

During the ensuing discussion, someone posts a link to advice on this issue from Lama Gangchen.

Henry (E-sangha Global Moderator)

Lama Gangchen is one of the strongest supporters for the Dolgyal practice.

although he is not connected to New Kadampa Tradition, we do not encourage any associations with him under the advice of the Private Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

If you have witnessed such abuses on E-sangha, please report them at:

esanghareport at gmail.com

Please go here for more information.

On August 26th a Forum member posts this:

I was wondering if anyone here is a member of, or has any opinions about Friends of the Western Buddhist Order FWBO?

I am interested in the fact that it has no specific affiliation with any certain school of Buddhism, but it rather generalizes and brings together all shared beliefs/aspects, making them more easily accesable to Westerners. Do you think this is beneficial, or damaging to the authenticism of individual schools of thought?

On 31st August, Anders Honore – an E-sangha administrator – informs us:

the reported incidents within the FWBO are far too numerous including in recent years to be put down to a few rotten apples.

Though it may have ‘corrected a few starting mishaps’ the fact of the matter is that its teachings are still founded on the thoughts of a sexually criminal mind, who deliberately violated his precepts and whose misconduct in general is too well reported to be put down to the personal grudge of a few belittled souls.

the FWBO is a large organised network and I am sure there is merit in this, but the fact that this network has done little to distance themselves from its throroughly rotten roots ensures its cult status. Perhaps if it acknowledged that there really is very little commendable abouts its original vision and that it cannot continue to affiliate itself with its past in any way without loss of integrity it might be considered a genuine Buddhist order. And even then, I am not sure there is much point in preserving the order, except to main the network.

A discussion on martial arts is interrupted:

Henry (E-sangha global moderator)

sorry, Czokonetup. i have removed your avatar without your permission.

that pic is a thangka of a fake terma of Aro gTer… they claimed that it is Guru Black Manjushri practice.

Godo

Was there something offensive about his Avatar, or is there some “religious purity” test that the images people choose need to pass?

Henry, sometimes I really do think you go a little too far.

Yudron

Henry, you have looked at those aro ter images yourself enough to recognize them when you see them, and as far as I know it has not harmed you. Why then would it be harmful for others to see this thanka. You opinions about this lama’s visionary experiences are well known, how about a little tolerance for spiritual diversity?

Henry:

whether Ngakphang Chogyam is like Lu Sheng Yen (of True Buddha School), merely copied and modified Dudjom Tesar and teachings of other tertons, i don’t want to argue.

but i would like to share an old email with you:

Dear Dharma friends,

I have found your webpage today and am very happy that there is so much
information about Ngakpa Chögyam.

very often asked my teacher H.H. Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche why he did not
do anything to stop Chögyam. He simply said that “Chögyam has put himself
up and will fall down all by himself”. I was not satisfied with this at all at the time
but as Rinpoche was such a wise teacher I believe that is what will be happening.
In the meantime many people who are initially attracted to Chögyam will eventually
find the true Dharma.

Yudron:

I agree with CR Lama on this topic. This situation will short itself out over time, you do not need to send in the dharma police. Do you feel like your judgement is better than this respected Rinpoche?

Whether you beleive in the validity of the Aro Ter or not, there is a lot to be said for practicing tolerance of people’s divergent beliefs. At least let them enjoy the art they like!

Forum member:

Is anyone out there Rime ngakpa or ngakpo? I’m a serious practitioner who wishes to meet same on this forum or in private emails.
I want to connect to ngakpa but not as part of a lineage. (Been there, done that)

Also any sangha members who use english for their sadhans aand pujas.

May all beings benefit

Henry (E-sangha global moderator)

Aro gTer and True Buddha School are famous for their fake termas, and their leaders, of coz, are fake tertons.

if one is really interested abt living as a genuine Ngakpa under Nyingma tradition (like what you mentioned “looked like a bunch of kooks,wearing their white felt costumes and all.phurbas in belts and all”), one may want to seek guidance from those who follow Dudjom Tersar teachings and so forth.

Forum member:

Tharpa and Henry,

as you will see is my name Lian Hua. I am a member of the True Buddha School. And His Holiness Guru Lian Sheng is my root Guru. Why do you judge others. I am feel really sad that you do not practice “right speech” and talk so negative about other Buddhist. Your negative words do not show you have gained wisdom from the Buddha’s teachings.

I pray that other Buddhist or non-Buddhist shall never judge you as you judge others. And as true the words of the Buddha say: once the fruits of wrong speech wil ripen.

Rev Nonin (Forum member) :

No one is free from delusion forever. Nothing is permanent. Delusion keeps coming up.

Anders Honore (E-sangha administrator)

That is really at odds with how this is usually taught in Buddhism, of any kind really.

Rev Nonin (Forum member) :

Not really. Nothing is permanent, Anders. This is basic Buddhist teaching. The absence of delusion is a mental state, and all mental states are impermanent. The second bodhisattva vow is “Delusions are inexhaustible; I vow to end them.” Inexhaustible means inexhaustible. The vow is to end them whenever we are afflicted by them. Buddhist practice is an ongoing process with no end.

This is how it is taught in the Buddhism I’ve studied and practiced.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin

Namdrol (former E-sangha global moderator)

This is an unacceptable position, these are the words of Mara, Adharma, False dharma, and may not propagated here at E-Sanga, in any forum. People who present themselves as Buddhist teachers here should not enunciate such falsehoods, lies and slanders.

Forum members celebrate the contemporary Buddhist Master Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, references are made to his videos such as this one:

at:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkICMrNG78M

In the middle of this celebration, Henry the global moderator weighs in with:

however, i am very strange abt Rinpoche’s position to NKT “Geshe” Kelsang Gyatso…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NJkuR3pk6Q

Rinpoche said:

“Those of us who follow teachers that are renowned, that you can see the result of their holy pracitce, you can see the result of their prayers and their hard work, and we should have faith and respect.His Holiness Dilgo Khentse Rinpoche, the great Nyingma master, His Holiness Khabjon Trijang Rinpoche, we should know what they are about and understand the dharma then we can check on a low level. The great master, the Kadampa Geshe, Kelsang Gyatso, you can see very clearly his works, his centers, his books, his pure vows, and how many thousands of people he effects, and we like or we don’t like, can see result, we accept or we don’t accept, it doesn’t really matter, I’m not at the level to judge and I’m not at the level to see, all I”m at the level is teach the dharma, teach guru devotion make students and their real and their teachers strong make them understand the dharma, so that they can apply to their own personal don’t give your practice to them, don’t change them.”

you can find this:
Video on Karma & its Relations to Vows (2 of 2) Part 2 found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NJkuR3pk6Q (fixed the hyperlink)

10:15 on the recording (10 mins into this video)

did i hear wrongly?

Forum members debate the rights and wrongs of praising Geshe Kelsang Gyatso who is persona non grata at E-sangha.

Then we have:
Losang Dorje

I think we should all mind our own business.

The Giant Albion (E-Sangha Moderator)

Generally, yes. But there are exceptions.

Some of us may be students of Tsem Tulku already, or may be interested in taking teachings from him. His views on Kelsang Gyatso are very relevant to these people. Best thing is to take mr walfington’s advice and just ask for clarification, and take whatever is said at face value and move on.

Henry (E-Sangha Global Moderator)

thus, this is the reason why i have merged Pero’s posts into this main thread.

besides, Tsem Rinpoche’s views do not represent general Tibetan Buddhism, and general Gelugpa views.

so for his (internet) students, if you want to maintain the bond with him, please seek clarification from him, and do post his replies in this thread (if any).

The debate continues with some people suggesting he may have been praising the 7th Dalai Lama – Kelsang Gyatso.

Then the big guns join in:

Namdrol (former E-sangha global moderator)

No you are wrong. He was praising Kalsang Gyatso of NKT fame– just open your eyes and and ears. Don’t make the error of fooling yourself over this out of misguided loyalty.

What Tsem Tulku is saying is that as far as he is concerned, he is not in a position to judge, and he is asserting that the results speak for themselves (i.e. his books, centers, etc.). He is the one calling Kelsang Gyatso of the NKT a “great master” and that statement speaks for itself.

Chigpu (E-sangha administrator)

Why would anybody want to associate with people like this?

The thread is closed at that point.

There was a recent thread on Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, which illustrates that E-sangha may have added him to the list of banned topics:

Subforum: Traditions > Tibetan Buddhism > Tibetan Buddhism General Forum
Thread title: Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, greatest lama evar
Date: Jan 27 2009, 03:22 AM

Individual:

Tsem Tulku Rinpoche is a great Lama.

What do you all think?

If I weren’t so radically non-sectarian (and thus unable to explicitly become any guru’s disciple) and weren’t weary of the burden of having a guru, I might go out and be a follower of his. At the very least, though, I’d like to see him around someday. He seems neat. I hope he isn’t under-appreciated.

Trinlè Lhundrup

I enjoyed watching the YouTube stuff when I got turned onto him a few months ago, but I have to say the in-your-face sarcasm wears on me after a bit. He seems to have a strong following. Nice to see someone shaking things up.

Henry (E-sangha global moderator) refers readers back to the above thread where Henry himself had picked up on 30 seconds of praise for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Those 30 seconds seem to have been enough to get Tsem Tulku Rinpoche discussions banned on E-sangha.

please see this thread.

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=58762

this thread will be closed.